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Needed Martial Arts changes.

Needed Martial Arts changes.

Well, I have now found out EXACTLY how much Ninjutsu need to be altered in GURPS. I am now taking classes in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, which, is in fact is 9 old school Warring States era Ninja and Samurai schools, of which Ninjutsu forms the core.

Let me start of by saying that Esquive (from Swashbucklers 2E) needs to be added to very many martial arts. The concept of stepping out of the way while executing a dodge, a parry, or even an attack is totally fundamental to all Ninjutsu, Kenjutsu, Mediaval European sword (and likely all other weapon) fighting styles, and indeed, is probably part of any martial art that is actually martial. It is probably the single most utilized manoeuuvre in Taijutsu, worth a mandatory 4 points in classic GURPS terms.

Oh, and Cat Stance should be part of Ninjutsu. We call it Hicho. And, it wasn't developed in Okinawa, contrary to claims in MA 2e. It is much older, and likely came from China, like much of Japanese martial arts.

Other manoevures to be added: Finger Lock, Head Lock, Jab, Neck Snap (more often done with the feet, and only real taught much to black belts, for probably obvious reasons),
Slip, and Sweeping Kick.

Shuto too, but this one is totally is misnamed. We have both actually. That is, we have the manoeuvre described in MA 2e as a Shuto, and we also have the real Shuto, which is a way of holding your hand for a strike that looks kind of like the classic karate chop, but with the hand in more of a curve, used to make scoooping, cutting types of blows.

Manoevres to delete: Jump kick. Okay, so I have seen the odd picture of some of the Grandamster's Japanese students doing Flying Jump Kicks in photos, but as a rule it is not part of the everyday reportoire of Taijutsu. Remember, pragmatic battlefield art. Not a lot of high kicks.

I am totally at a loss as to why GURPS calls Roll with the Blow "cinematic." Not only is it used quite successfully in many real martial arts, but they even teach it to paratroopers. Actually, Binding is real too, but probably more difficult than suggested in MA 2e. And Fighting While Seated: also real, and also a big aprt of old Japanese fighting arts, since treachery was a big feature of Warring States Japan.

Additional thoughts: There are no plain vanilla parries in Taijutsu. Done properly, every parry is either an Aggressive Parry or a Judo parry. I think that in COSH terms there should be some sort of discount for parry cost, because we just don't study that plain blocking parry. (And Aggressive Parry at 4 points not 2.) Actaully, such purely defensive moves don't fit in too well with the overall ethos of old school Japanese fihghting arts (the -jutsu ones, as opposed to -do). If you aren't counterattacking in some way while defending, you are wasting a good opportunity.

Shuriken: not a "Hard" skill. More like average. Real shuriken are pretty thin. You should be able to hold nine in your palm or pocket with no problem. Throwing them is very similar to throwing knives. And indeed, ninja throw throwing knives (bo-shiriken) in the same manner as shuriken.

And weapons: nearly every Taijutsu move has an equivelent with a weapon. The stances translate over. Sometimes hand position is changed, but for many manoeuvres, when we learn a weapon, we don't really have to learnb a whole new move. And the footwork is the same in any case. Some kind of discount on the price of weapn skilsl and manoevres taught in Nijutsu would staff-naginata-spear: these are not, at least in Ninjutsu, and I suspect in all Japanese Budo, three seperate skills. The moves are the same, and when you train with one, you train with all in mind. They are pretty much one skill, with one set of manoevres. The only difference is whether you just smashed a hard wood pole into them or a sharp metal thing. But that consideration doesn't alter the moves themsleves.

For that matter, there should be more overlap and lower defaults between fighting skills.

If you know the footwork to Taijusu, you are a long way towards learning the footwork in George Silver's True Fight, and vice versa.

Similarly, his True Times apply in Ninjustu and other classical Budo.

And then there are combos. Hmmn. This is the thing: in real fights or practice between trained opponents, using real fighting arts, as opposed to sports/competition/show stuff, you are ALWAYS using combos, quite commonly of three, and sometimes four or five different GURPS manoeuvres.

But that doesn't mean we "learned" the combo. We do learn combos, but we learn probably hundreds by black belt level, and the point is never to memorize the combo, but rather to understand the combo, so we can use pieces of it whenever we need to.

The whole GURPS concept of putting points into a few very specific combos that are easily predicted doesn't fit reality at all.

Some martial arts do teach set combos, often in katas and such. But many arts actaully designed for the battlefield teach you to just do whatever seems appropriate and remain flexible. Part of the whole point is not having set combos, but rather, being able string together whatever manoeurvres you need and improvising a combo on the spot. No two moves ever the same.

I am mot yet sure how to reflect this in GURPS, but it needs to be done because it is the biggest thing standing in the way of making combat happen as it does in life.

Suggestions?

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Thanks for the long post!

Thanks for the long post! Full of crunchy stuff.

Looks like you beat me to making use of my own forums. : ) I'm glad to have the post here. So I almost hesitate to say this, but as the topic really addresses the upcoming Martial Arts 4e, you might want to post on the regular SJG forums too; you stand to hear directly from MA 4e team members, and other folks who know much more about RL martial arts than I do.

That said, you do mention some Diner-specific stuff, and it's all an interesting topic, so I'm happy to wade in here:

 

Well, I have now found out EXACTLY how much Ninjutsu need to be altered in GURPS.

Good to have input from a practitioner (though I have to note that various schools may have differing opinions on each others' claims...)

 

Let me start of by saying that Esquive (from Swashbucklers 2E) needs to be added to very many martial arts. The concept of stepping out of the way while executing a dodge, a parry, or even an attack is totally fundamental

Sounds like a common RL move, as you describe it; can you paraphrase the technique for those of us without Swash 2E?

 

Oh, and Cat Stance should be part of Ninjutsu. We call it Hicho. And, it wasn't developed in Okinawa, contrary to claims in MA 2e. It is much older, and likely came from China, like much of Japanese martial arts.

I would expect some schools would teach it, and others would not, or not at the same stage... Is that a possibility? (Oh, and as for the Okinawa origin, that may be via Hollywood... : )

 

Other manoevures to be added: Finger Lock, Head Lock, Jab, Meck Snap (more often done with the feet, and only real taught much to black belts, for probably obvious reasons), Slip, and Sweeping Kick.

I assume that in the new MA too, you can build your own Ninjutsu style as you like. Just toss the above in... Same with deleting Jump Kick and making other mods. I don't know that there's a single Ninjutsu school MA could claim to depict (though again, I'm no expert).

 

Shuto too, but this one is totally is misnamed. We have both actually. That is, we have the manoeuvre described in MA 2e as a Shuto, and we also have the real Shuto, which is a way of holding your hand for a strike that looks kind of like the classic karate chop, but with the hand in more of a curve, used to make scoooping, cutting types of blows.

What are the names you use for the two different moves?

 

I am totally at a loss as to why GURPS calls Roll with the Blow "cinematic." Not only is it used quite successfully in many real martial arts, but they even teach it to paratroopers.

Sounds to me like something even an untrained fighter could attempt, at least if prepared somewhat. Maybe there'll be changes in MA 4e.

 

Additional thoughts: There are no plain vanilla parries in Taijutsu. Done properly, every parry is either an Aggressive Parry or a Judo parry. I think that in COSH terms there should be some sort of discount for parry cost, because we just don't study that plain blocking parry. (And Aggressive Parry at 4 points not 2.)

But if you have the full (3E) Judo Parry in a COSH-made skill, that includes and improves upon a "plain" parry, doesn't it? So unless I'm missing something, I don't see a discount in order.

 

Shuriken: not a "Hard" skill. More like average. Real shuriken are pretty thin. You should be able to hold nine in your palm or pocket with no problem. Throwing them is very similar to throwing knives. And indeed, ninja throw throwing knives (bo-shiriken) in the same manner as shuriken.

No argument here, though I don't speak from shuriken-chucking experience.

 

And weapons: nearly every taijutsu move has an equivelent with a weapon. The stances translate over. Sometimes hand position is changed, but for many manoeuvres, when we learn a weapon, we don't really have to learnb a whole new move. And the footwork is the same in any case.

That's a wide-ranging issue: is there "general" combat ability above and beyond individual skills? High DX is a sensible answer for a skilled fighter, representing improved ability with any weapon or combat move, stemming from his areas of focus... Or, as you say later, perhaps there should be more extensive cross-defaults, even between really disparate skills. (But as you may know, I don't think the GURPS mechanics for defaults support that too well; once level in the leading skill is high enough, it becomes a waste to put any points into the defaulting skills. It can make for a bit of a point crock.)

 

Some kind of discount on the price of weapn skilsl and manoevres taught in Nijutsu would staff-naginata-spear: these are not, at least in Ninjutsu, and I susect in all Japanes Budo, three seperate skills. The moves are the same, and when you train with one, you train with all in mind. They are pretty much one skill, with one set of manoevres.

Doesn't GURPS 4e already grant this, via cross-defaults among the three? Per my comment above, it may not be an ideal mechanic, but it is some treatment of the matter. Do you think the cross-defaults here should be even less?

 

If you know the footwork to Taijusu, you are a long way towards learning the footwork in George Silver's True Fight, and vice versa.

If you consider the footwork as belonging to a style, not an individual skill, there's nothing in 3e to address what you say here. It's one of the vaguely unsatisfying things about MA 3e: a style isn't really anything more than a name attached to a bundle of component abilities. There's no skill, or other special "hook", that creates and defines the style itself. I'm curious as to whether 4e has something new here.

 

And then there are combos. Hmmn. This is the thing: in real fights or practice between trained opponents, using real fighting arts, as opposed to sports/competition/show stuff, you are ALWAYS using combos, quite commonly of three, anbd sometimes four or five different GURPS manoeuvres.

But that doesn't mean we "learned" the combo. We do learn combos, but we learn probably hundreds by black belt level, and the point is never to memorize the combo, but rather to understand the combo, so we can use pieces of it whenever we need to.

3e combos are multiple actions bought at a special cost (and with some special features). I wonder whether 4e will change that. For example, now that 4e offers Rapid Strike, it makes sense for combos involving multiple blows to be bought as reductions in the Rapid Strike penalty. Or if combos are more of an on-the-fly "mix and match" of abilities, not preset combinations, as you say, maybe overall reductions in penalties for Rapid Strike, multiple parries, etc. within a style make sense.

Anyway, I have no idea whether 4e has something new for us here.

 

Some martial arts do teach set combos, often in katas and such. But many arts actaully designed for the battlefield teach you to just do whatever seems appropriate and remain flexible. Part of the whole point is not having set combos, but rather, being able string together whatever manoeurvres you need and improvising a combo on the spot. No two moves ever the same.

Hmm, picking up on that thought, you could also see normally-paced, everyday mixing-and-matching of general attacks, defenses, and other actions as "combos", if you want to use the name, meaning normal GURPS combat does support combos as you describe them. Would you agree?

T Bone

How did you do that neat

How did you do that neat indented guote thing? I can't fugire it out so i am suing the email quote >.

>Good to have input from a practitioner (though I have to >note >that various schools may have differing opinions on >each others' claims...)

>I would expect some schools would teach it, and others >would >not, or not at the same stage... Is that a >>possibility? (Oh, >and as for the Okinawa origin, that may be via Hollywood... : >)
>I assume that in the new MA too, you can build your own >Ninjutsu style as you like. Just toss the above in... Same >with deleting Jump Kick and making other mods. I don't know >that there's a single Ninjutsu school MA could claim to >depict (though again, I'm no expert).

Well, yes, they probably couldn't, at least not easily. here is the thing: the only authentic Ninja school left in the world is Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi's Bujinkan. Although there were once @70 schools, they have all died out, except the ones that Dr. Hatsmui inherited leadership of.

Of course, the Bujinkkan is actually nine separate ryu put together, several being ninja ryu, and several being samurai ryu. So, yes, it is quite possible that historical ryu varied somewhat. But all the existing scrolls documenting the ninja schools are in Japan, generally in private hands, and often considered secrets. Trying to represent a specific ryu thus involves either traveling to Japan and doing some intensive research, or guessing. As far as trying to represent a "generic" Ninjutsu (as MA is trying to do), Dr. Hatsumi's school is the best basis for that, since it represents the traditions of several famous ninja ryu (the schools of Iga and Koga provinces) and the information is freely available.

>Sounds like a common RL move, as you describe it; can you >paraphrase the technique for those of us without Swash 2E?

Gladly. Actaully, I think it is in 3e. Sorry for the mistake. I highly recommnend Swashbucklers 3e, in spite of having several bones to pick with the author. If you have MA and found it of any use, you really should get SB, especially if combat with weapons is a feature of your campaign. It is invaluable for the manoeuvres alone.

Esquive (Hard) defaults to any combat skill-3

The principle of Esquive is this, when someone attacks you, you don't have to fly across the room to get out of the way, all you have to do is move a few inches. If they miss you by an inch, they still missed.

A successful Esquive roll gives a bonus to any active defence., similar to that fro retreating, but withiut giving ground. Sidestepping within your hex gives +2.

Stepping into an adjacent empty hex neither closer of further to the opponent is +3.

An actual retreat gives +4, not +3 with this manouevre.

They SAY (in SB) that you can't step closer, because this is a Slip. But that is wrong. A Slip gives you no bonus to defence, as written. This can be done as part of a Slip. We do it everyday in class. Treat it like a Slip, with a +2 Def, on a succesful esquive roll.

Here is something else about Esquive not mentioned in SB. A good, well done Esquive will put you in a position where the foe is now open to an attack, but they will have to turn to attack you. (Assuming you sidestepped, not retreated). It is a matter of body angle. We step away diagonally.

I suggest something like: for every 3 points you make on your Esquive roll, the opponent is at -1 to their next attack agiant the user of the Esquive.

>What are the names you use for the two different moves?

Well, Shuto, as mentioned, is a way of holding your hand for a strike, like a karate chop (I forget the technical name. we don;t do those.), but with fingers nest in towards the palm for a more solid striking object, and the thumb pressed against the side of the index fingre. The strike is exceuted as a cutting, scooping sort of motion.

What MA calls a Shuto could be just a plain old Boxing Uppercut, or with Taijutsu, it could have a number of names, based on how you held your fingers. I can't remember the name right now (my wife has our handbook with her at work, and all of our copies of Dr. Hatsumi's books have been loaned to a fellow student), but the three fingered stike we do in Chi no Kata, done by arcing the arm up under their guard into their solar plexus would also be an example.

>But if you have the full (3E) Judo Parry in a COSH-made >skill, that includes and improves upon a "plain" parry, >doesn't it? So unless I'm missing something, I don't see a >discount in order.

Well, yes, in COSH it might work out. Here is the thing: In vanilla, GURPS, Taijutsu would be represented by the Karate and Judo skills. But, that has us paying for a Karate Parry we don't use.

What I would try to do, in COSH, is do something like the D. Weber's Stripped down Judo, only for Karate. I would remove the Parry from Karate. The trick is that this would neccesitate allowing Aggressive Parry to default to Judo Parry. That is what I mean by "discount."

>That's a wide-ranging issue: is there "general" combat >ability above and beyond individual skills? High DX is a >sensible answer for a skilled fighter, representing >improved ability with any weapon or combat move, stemming >from his areas of focus... Or, as you say later, perhaps >there should be more extensive cross-defaults, even between >really disparate skills. (But as you may know, I don't >think the GURPS mechanics for defaults support that too >well; once level in the leading skill is high enough, it >becomes a waste to put any points into the defaulting >skills. It can make for a bit of a point crock.)

I tried making up a general combat skill. It is a bit of a pain, honestly. Yes, in GURPS the default is a bit of a problem, with some skills. (Vetinary/Animal Handling!) I don't think it is unrealitic with combat skills though. As you become really good at any one combat skill, you will be learning techniques that apply to all.

As an example, our Grandmaster, Dr. Hatsumi turned out to be a very good marksman the first time he picked up a gun, juts because his knwledge of Ninjustu gave him a very good feel for how he used his body, his balance, judgement of distance, etc.

One thing I do (using an ESCARG0 type sytem of course!) is allow defaults both ways between skills. It involves a bit of record keeping though. Anyway, ESCARGO fixes the point crock problem. Though I think ESCARGO rises a bit steeply. Hence I use Fibonnacci sequence in place of the ESCARGO one.

>Doesn't GURPS 4e already grant this, via cross-defaults >among the three? Per my comment above, it may not be an >ideal mechanic, but it is some treatment of the matter. Do >you think the cross-defaults here should be even less?

I suppose it depends on how the weapon is taught. I think weapons should be looked at like COSH tends to. If I learn to use a swung and thrust poleram using both a middle and end grip (Ninjutsu specializes in rapidly switching to an end grip to get extra range out of pole weapons), then I should be able to use staves, spears and naginatas with it equally well.

GURPS still has me learning three skills, no matter how low the defaults. If hand grip, length and balance and mthod of handling are the same or even just close enough, then there should be no penalty.

>If you consider the footwork as belonging to a style, not >an individual skill, there's nothing in 3e to address what >you say here. It's one of the vaguely unsatisfying things >about MA 3e: a style isn't really anything more than a name >attached to a bundle of component abilities. There's no >skill, or other special "hook", that creates and defines >the style itself. I'm curious as to whether 4e has >something new here.

They actaully did represent the effects of a Style once: In SB 3e, La Destreza Verdadera gets a Speed and Min ST penatly in exhange for a bonus to Feints and Counterattacks.

And yes, I think doing this more often is worth consideration. But is needs to be done with care. It opens up the opportunity to try to give one's favourite style all kinds of unwarranted bonuses. What I find as I study is that there is more in common between real combat arts than there are differences. After all, trial and error will reveal the same basic lessons about how the human body moves and bends.

>Hmm, picking up on that thought, you could also see >normally-paced, everyday mixing-and-matching of general >attacks, defenses, and other actions as "combos", if you >want to use the name, meaning normal GURPS combat does >support combos as you describe them. Would you agree?

Yes and no. A very large part of it would be remedied by just allowing variosu manoeuvres to be combined. Consider what I mentioned above. There is nothing special about doing a Slip at the same time as an Esquive. That shouldn't require a combo. There are a number of instances where using one manoeuvre at the same time as another is just common sense. Corps a Corps should be able to be done as part of a Riposte (and not as the attack, either, just as part of the Parry, like Bind(from SB 3e)). Or Pass (SB3e) + an Esquive defence, as part of a Riposte/Counterattack. Step way and parry, step in and attack.

Another part of it is making shock happen immediately, not starting next turn. If I strike my opponent's hand with my staff, he feels that now, and it seriously inhibits his ability to keep moving that sword, offensively or defensively, and allows me to keep controlling the fight.

Do those two things and you have addressed the biggest part of the matter.

Indented quotes and martial arts

How did you do that neat indented guote thing? I can't fugire it out so i am suing the email quote >.

Sorry! I goofed up my setup of word processor-style controls for visitors. It should be enabled for you now; still no quick "quote" command, but much more control over formatting. I used the "indent right" button (should be obvious in the controls) for quoting.

here is the thing: the only authentic Ninja school left in the world is Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi's Bujinkan. Although there were once @70 schools, they have all died out, except the ones that Dr. Hatsmui inherited leadership of.

Well, I won't argue with you there; you know much more about ninjutsu than I do. But, er, isn't it something of a given that claims of "the one and only authentic" will be rife in a field like martial arts, with claims and counter-claims flying wildly? Who would be the one to determine that one school is "authentic" and others aren't?

But that's neither here nor there; if the school you quote is an active and respected one, it certainly does represent a body of learning that can be represented as a game style.

I highly recommnend Swashbucklers 3e, in spite of having several bones to pick with the author. If you have MA and found it of any use, you really should get SB, especially if combat with weapons is a feature of your campaign. It is invaluable for the manoeuvres alone.

I will have to pick it up. Though I expect the maneuvers will be fully covered in the upcoming MA.

Re Esquive: From your description, it sounds like an improved Retreat, that's gained upon making a skill -3 roll. Sounds fine to me so far.

Re the comments on Slip, and post-Esquive positioning, I'll take your word that the moves could be better modeled as you say. It would be interesting if you posed that to the MA team on the SJG forums; it may be too late to change the book, but they may have meaningful comment.

 

>But if you have the full (3E) Judo Parry in a COSH-made >skill, that includes and improves upon a "plain" parry, doesn't it? So unless I'm missing something, I don't see a >discount in order.

Well, yes, in COSH it might work out. Here is the thing: In vanilla, GURPS, Taijutsu would be represented by the Karate and Judo skills. But, that has us paying for a Karate Parry we don't use.

What I would try to do, in COSH, is do something like the D. Weber's Stripped down Judo, only for Karate. I would remove the Parry from Karate. The trick is that this would neccesitate allowing Aggressive Parry to default to Judo Parry. That is what I mean by "discount."

If I'm understanding the intent correctly, COSH is designed to do just that. Create a skill or skills, with only one high-powered Parry ability. Add Aggressive Parry among the maneuvers. I see no problem mixing and matching maneuvers; the point with COSH is that you'll end up paying for a total number of maneuvers. What those maneuvers are, should be up to you as the designer. So I think it should serve your purpose.

On a "general combat skill":

 

I tried making up a general combat skill. It is a bit of a pain, honestly. Yes, in GURPS the default is a bit of a problem, with some skills. (Vetinary/Animal Handling!) I don't think it is unrealitic with combat skills though. As you become really good at any one combat skill, you will be learning techniques that apply to all.

I have no problem with the idea of lots of defaults; I just find the specific implementation unsatisfying in GURPS. If a dozen combat skills default to your lead skill (say, Broadsword), then after some point, each bit of study of Broadsword counts 100% as study of all those skills. Putting study into any defaulting skill equates to throwing away points, which of course doesn't feel right.

But, I'm not aware of a simple improvement for GURPS.

As an example, our Grandmaster, Dr. Hatsumi turned out to be a very good marksman the first time he picked up a gun, juts because his knwledge of Ninjustu gave him a very good feel for how he used his body, his balance, judgement of distance, etc.

Interesting. In game terms, it sounds like a clear case of increased DX – something realistic for any experienced fighter or athlete.

One thing I do (using an ESCARG0 type sytem of course!) is allow defaults both ways between skills. It involves a bit of record keeping though. Anyway, ESCARGO fixes the point crock problem. Though I think ESCARGO rises a bit steeply. Hence I use Fibonnacci sequence in place of the ESCARGO one.

That's interesting too. Might be a good option or alternative to add to a future ESCARGO update.

 

>Doesn't GURPS 4e already grant this, via cross-defaults >among the three? Per my comment above, it may not be an >ideal mechanic, but it is some treatment of the matter. Do >you think the cross-defaults here should be even less?

I suppose it depends on how the weapon is taught. I think weapons should be looked at like COSH tends to. If I learn to use a swung and thrust poleram using both a middle and end grip (Ninjutsu specializes in rapidly switching to an end grip to get extra range out of pole weapons), then I should be able to use staves, spears and naginatas with it equally well.

GURPS still has me learning three skills, no matter how low the defaults.

Right, but to learn all three up to the same level will cost less than learning three unrelated skills. That'd be GURPS' way of saying that they are, at least partially, different aspects of one skill.

Re whether there should a skill or other trait representing a style's unique footwork etc.:

They actaully did represent the effects of a Style once: In SB 3e, La Destreza Verdadera gets a Speed and Min ST penatly in exhange for a bonus to Feints and Counterattacks.

And yes, I think doing this more often is worth consideration. But is needs to be done with care. It opens up the opportunity to try to give one's favourite style all kinds of unwarranted bonuses.

Right. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about: little differences that make a style unique – truly a style – and not just a collection of skills under a fancy name (all of which works no differently from the same bundle of skills without any style name). It'd be great to see more of that. But without some method for keeping these add-ons balanced, there will be trouble as you say.

COSH can go much farther than stock rules in making styles unique, which is something I really like about it.

 

What I find as I study is that there is more in common between real combat arts than there are differences. After all, trial and error will reveal the same basic lessons about how the human body moves and bends.

The game does handle that fine through DX, though I can understand your wanting something a little more focused as well.

>Hmm, picking up on that thought, you could also see >normally-paced, everyday mixing-and-matching of general >attacks, defenses, and other actions as "combos", if you >want to use the name, meaning normal GURPS combat does >support combos as you describe them. Would you agree?

Yes and no. A very large part of it would be remedied by just allowing variosu manoeuvres to be combined. Consider what I mentioned above. There is nothing special about doing a Slip at the same time as an Esquive. That shouldn't require a combo. There are a number of instances where using one manoeuvre at the same time as another is just common sense. Corps a Corps should be able to be done as part of a Riposte (and not as the attack, either, just as part of the Parry, like Bind(from SB 3e)). Or Pass (SB3e) + an Esquive defence, as part of a Riposte/Counterattack. Step way and parry, step in and attack.

I see. Well, the remedy does sound simple enough: allow a wider range of maneuver combinations, as you describe. I would expect disagreements on some points of what can be combined with what, but I'm sure there'd be a good-sized list that most experienced martial artists would agree on.

 

Another part of it is making shock happen immediately, not starting next turn. If I strike my opponent's hand with my staff, he feels that now, and it seriously inhibits his ability to keep moving that sword, offensively or defensively, and allows me to keep controlling the fight.

Interesting. Whether SJG agrees with that or not, it sounds simple enough to implement in your own games.

Do those two things and you have addressed the biggest part of the matter.

I think that's a pretty clear thumbs-up for GURPS combat, given that the two things you say are in biggest need of fixing look easy to implement!

T Bone

That and multiple attacks

That and multiple attacks for high skill. ( I mean the ordinary +1 per 8 levels of skill rule, not the Chambara Rules)

I would actually suggest applying Skill/10 as a multiplier to total attacks, or even ROF with semi-auto weapons. Obviosuly, you would round it off to an integer of with melee attacks. So, at skill 15 you would get 2 attacks. (1.5 rounds up to 2) This is only one leevl before the 16 sugested in GURPS as is, and at 25 you would get three, one after the 24 at present.

A resaon for this is: the British SAS are required be able to fire about 5 rounds a second with a semi-auto pistol. With a skill of 17 they could do that., suing this rule.

You could use Speed Load this way too.

(How do you edit a post, besides the first one?)

multiple attacks

You mean the game should keep (with modification) some version of the "+1 per 8 levels" rule?

I don't know. Naturally, anyone who wants to implement automatic, free multiple attacks as a benefit of high skill should go ahead and do so. But me, I never liked 'em. Or any such free add-on. From years back, I've been arguing that extra attacks, or reductions to enemy defenses, etc. should cost some TH penalty, and I'm glad to see 4e go that route. So under 4e, Skill-20 can attack twice – but each at TH 14. That's the approach I've preferred all along.

I don't know whether 4e has a similar method for rapid gun fire. Shouldn't be hard to implement, though.

Re editing posts: Sorry, the ability to do so would require, as in the SJG forums or any forums, user IDs and logins. I haven't implemented that, as it seems a bother for users to have to get an ID just to post a forum reply. But, people likely do want to edit posts, and IDs will help keep out spam, so I should implement soon. 

T Bone

Multiple attacks and ninja traditions.

I think I agree that they shoudln'y be "free' attacks. As far as melee attacks go, first, they should have to actually be explained as part of soms logical series of moves.

I don't think being able to repeat two identical attacks (barring things like jabs) in a turn makes sense anyway. What I have seen done is that a very well trained fighter will find a way to take advanatge of the positions they end up in to throw in some extra strike somewhere while flowing through a series of moves.

I don't have a problem with the new "extra attack at a penalty" solution, really. That works fine too. Although, perhaps from a realism perspective there should be some minimum skill level to even be allowed to attempt that. Not from any concern of play balance. We probably don't care too much if some minimal skill character is throwing away their turn on two totally unlikely attacks, but just that, from my experience, even trying to do such a thing requires a certain degree of coordination and experience (skill) to even make it work without falling over or something.:) As far as the gun thing, it is a little different, since we are talking more about fractions of attacks as multipliers to RoFs.

As for the ninja schools thing: Japanese martial arts schools hand down scrolls called Menkyo, certifying the succession of head of the school. When a Soke (Head of the school) retires, they willl give this scroll to their successor, proving that they are the legitimate head of the school, along with passing on various documents the school possesses. They keep lists of successive Soke, and so forth. (Indeed, many other non-Japanese schools do the same.)

These documents are the proof of a school's historical lineage.

The Bujinkan doesn't claim to be the only surviving authentic Ninja school to discredit other schools. Any school with the proper documents would be accepted as such amongst the Japanese Budo community. There just aren't any such (Ninja) schools. In Japan, nobody would be presumptious enough to even make such a claim without being able to offer documentation.

There are, as mentioned, people who privately possess various scrolls from other ninja traditions. And there are those, like historical re-enactors who take part in local festivals, who preserve certain aspects of ninja heritage as historical artifacts. But none of these people claim to run an accreditated fighting school.

I understand what you are saying about schools claiming to be "the one and only TRUE -jutsu/do/fu (TM)." But with us, there just aren't any "rival schools."

Of course, maybe there are secret Ninja clans still out there...they are Ninja after all. But they probably won't reveal themselves for the benefit of the RPG community. ;)

The scarcity of schools isn't limited to Ninjutus. There are AFAIK only about 15 real Kenjutsu schools left, for example.

As real combat arts became marginalized following the establishment of the Tokugawa Shogunate, and again with the Meiji restoration, the surviving Soke had fewer and fewer students to choose their successors amongst. Talented martial artists often ended up collecting the Menkyo of more than one school. Then, they might pass all those menkyo on to one exceational student, who would accumulate others elsewhere, etc Our Soke has Menkyo from 16 schools, for example.

Because Ninja made up their own radically different subculture that operated outside mainstream Japanese culture, and was even in it's heyday a small minority amongst the prevailing samurai culture, it left correspondingly few lineages.

Someone might try to follow the path of the European medieval arts, which all died out, and try to resurrect a school from surviving scrolls, piecing together the techniques through study of the records and experimentation. But again, AFAIK, nobody has gone this route with Ninjutsu.

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