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Patron advantage

Calling for weapon data!

Submitted by tbone on Fri, 2006-12-29 17:49.
  • New projects

I've (barely) mentioned a non-GURPS "Project T" here and there: a home-brew RPG skeleton. Details are still down the pike. For now, here's one feature of interest to some:

The game's combat mechanics allow for detailed melee weapon performance stemming from mass, length, balance, and so on, all in realistic fashion (to the best of my simulation skills). The relevant stats for typical weapons will come ready-made on a chart for easy play, just like any game. But as with GLAIVE, the rules initially generate those stats from basic weapon data. That's good for the simulation and consistency hounds, and also lets GMs build any real or imagined melee weapon.

I've got the number-crunching formulae; now I need the numbers! For any object that can bash, hack, or poke holes in foes, I'm searching for:

1) Mass in kilograms
2) Overall length in meters
3) Point of grip if defined (see below)
4) Point of balance (see below)
5) Appropriate notes

(I'm passing up the statistic known as center of percussion (CoP). The online discussion over where CoP is, and what it means for performance, is too messy for me to make sense of!)

Statistics for real weapons are great. Replica or training weapon data is fine too. And even improvised weapon data – shovels, carpentry hammers, lumber – is fun to have.

On that list above, 1) and 2) are simple: mass and length data is easy to find for some historical weapons, and for on-hand objects, is easy to measure.

Item 3) is the measurement in meters from the butt end of the weapon to roughly the top of the hand (curled forefinger and thumb). For a sword, that's pretty easy: the distance from end (tip of pommel) to the cross-guard. (Relevant image at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Sword_parts.jpg )

Many weapons won't have a hilt or cross-guard, though; an axe or spear can generally be held in many places. If there's a point where the weapon would *normally* be held, I'll take that. Otherwise, ignore it; I can easily make up something appropriate. (That'll be no less than 0.1m for a normal-sized wielder, I think; that's about the span of a fist, allowing for a little wiggle room. Point of grip wouldn't be lower than that.)

Under the rules, one- or two-handed use is up to the wielder; the system will generate appropriate numbers either way. But that'll generally leave big "two-handed" weapons unusable one-handed, so if the weapon's likely meant to be used two-handed, treat it that way.

Point of grip for a two-hander refers to the forward hand. If you have an idea of where both forward and rear hands would typically go, note the "spread" distance between the two. Assume each hand on the weapon, as above, takes 0.1m, as does each hand-width of spread. Adding things up, the space of the two hands, plus the spread between, plus any significant length sticking out below the rear hand should add up to point of grip. (Example: a sword gripped with rear hand pretty much on the end, and a hand-width between the two hands, would have point of grip 0.3m; if there were also a hand-width of pommel sticking out at bottom, point of grip would be 0.4.)

The most elusive info is 4): point of balance (PoB), measured in meters from the butt of the weapon (i.e., tip of pommel for a sword) to the PoB. Info sources with reams of good weapon data, such as http://www.thearma.org/essays/2HGS.html , typically make little or no mention of PoB data. If you do find data online, take care how it's being measured. For example, if PoB is measured from the cross-guard, not the butt, then adding hilt length to the PoB data should yield the total butt-to-PoB length I'm looking for.

Without data, there's nothing to do but guess. Easy enough for a straight staff (PoB is right smack in center!), not so hard for a sword (take a guess based on known sword data)... but for a polearm, I don't know; my guess is really a guess.

(If you're measuring on your own, PoB is easy: it's the point where the weapon will balance on an outstretched finger. Careful with those edges!)

Finally, I don't think we can measure PoB for flexible or jointed weapons. I haven't yet pinned down performance for these, or for oddities like nets. If you have any data for these, I'll take what you have, and figure out how to use it later.

That brings me to 5): mainly, I'll want to know what the item is and where the numbers come from. Is the weapon real, or a replica, or improvised? "14th century English warsword" is more helpful than "sword"; "Fred's Armoury replica of 10th century Saxon battleaxe" is more helpful than "replica axe".

If historical data, what's the source? What items are you taking a guess at? Or all the stats entirely your own invention? (Nothing wrong with that, as long as it's labeled as such!)

I have an open Google Spreadsheet to collect data (link below). If you report data here in the forum, I'll input it from here; if you'd like to input directly into the Spreadsheet (thanks!), Google apparently requires that I first send you an invite by email. So let me know in the forum, or at tbone@gamesdiner.com .

I've started the Spreadsheet with a few entries of my own. I've got data for some swords and baseball bats which I've found online (though I need to relocate my sources : / ), and I measured a sledgehammer and a couple of umbrellas(!) on my own. The rest is educated guesswork.

What've you got? In addition to swords, I'd love to see some axes, clubs, polearms (got one handy?), practice/sport weapons (beaters, bokken, shinai, etc.), "farmer" weapons (shovels, pitchforks), oddball weapons (man-catchers, light sabers, heavy canes), just about anything with potential for mayhem.

If you have data for a weapon, Project T will let you arm yourself with it. Please contribute, and let's look forward to glorious battles with sword, spear, and halberd. (And garden rake, if that's all that's handy.)

Google Spreadsheet:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pMVyy57brqG5a1vBUVxveXQ

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Re: Calling for weapon data!

Submitted by alimantando on Fri, 2007-07-20 23:04.

Any progressions?
Just curious.

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Re: Calling for weapon data!

Submitted by tbone on Fri, 2007-07-27 17:08.

Thanks for asking, and sorry for the slow reply.

I have been making progress, but v-e-r-y slowly. Just haven't put proper time into the project. With weapon data, I can churn out some very interesting performance measures, bringing together the weapon data with wielder strength (and even wielder size and mass playing a role), but I'm still turning those performance measures into playable game mechanics.

Vague enough for you? : ) Sorry, more detail would take tons of space. Just let me add that I've gotten tired of the project taking so long (especially, with so much work put into it already), and have been picking it up with renewed obsessive fervor lately. I will release something!

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Re: Calling for weapon data!

Submitted by alimantando (not verified) on Wed, 2007-02-28 07:58.

It seams you measure the spread between the hands.

It may be better, to take the difference between the right hand PoG und the left hand PoG. That is the distance between the tops of the two hands. I am not shure, how the two handed grip changes for different hand sizes.

 

Note to my self: Figure out how to wheight my bokken better then somewhere arround half a kg.

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Re: Calling for weapon data!

Submitted by tbone on Thu, 2007-03-01 00:24.

Hello! I think your suggestion makes good sense... I'm going to dust off my spreadsheet, make sure it's a better method without some drawback peculiar to my methodology, and if all is well, reflect your suggestion in my game and in this thread's instructions. Thanks!

About that bokken: I don't have one around these days, so if you can measure the stats, that would be great.  

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Re: Calling for weapon data!

Submitted by alimantando (not verified) on Sat, 2007-03-17 20:59.

I did send you the measurements of two differen bokken and a jo unsing the contact form of this site. Did you get them?

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Re: Calling for weapon data!

Submitted by tbone on Sun, 2007-03-18 16:12.

Got 'em! Looks good (and interestingly, the bokken are similar to the umbrellas I measured. : ) 

Have added to my local spreadsheet; will do so later for the online sheet.

Question: What does one do with the jo? Hold in two hands or one? Typically, where are the grip(s)? 

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Re: Calling for weapon data!

Submitted by alimantando (not verified) on Sun, 2007-03-18 20:58.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C5%8D
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5359625860913697857&q=kendo

Its a staff. You can grip it on the hole length, depending on the technique used.

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Weapon data

Submitted by Esteemed VisitorB (not verified) on Sat, 2006-12-30 11:56.

If I might suggest a couple of sources, there's "From Sumer to Rome" by Richard Gabriel and Karen Metz. There's a chapter discussing experiments done with re-created ancient weapons and armor, including an estimate of weight, speed in use and energy produced, plus energy required to penetrate armor. Note: armor works. They in turn relied on Yigael Yadin's "Art of Warfare in Biblical Lands" which I do not have but have heard good things about. "From Sumer to Rome" also includes a discussion of how the superior speed of Roman swordsmen helped them beat Greek spearmen (getting back to another subject on this web site.) I can provide the data if you'd like but the book is worth a look.

If you haven't checked it already, http://www.thearma.org/ might have useful information on weapon performance as well.

-DW

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Re Weapon data

Submitted by tbone on Thu, 2007-01-04 23:33.

Aargh, I replied days ago and the post isn't here. I probably brilliantly forgot to hit "Post".

I believe I said: Thanks, DW, you're always full of helpful info. I haven't heard of these books and likely would not have stumbled across them. Both are expensive, and Yadin's looks like it's only available second-hand, but both are on my "to get" list.

I know thearma.org well. It's a storehouse of info; the big challenge is paring the content down to something digestible for game purposes! And I have pulled some weapon data off of it, though again, the copious numbers in some articles rarely place a number on PoB...

Ah well, that's part of the beauty of a roll-your-own weapon system: if you don't know what the real thing's stats should be, you make them up, and say "that's how this sword is built". And the rules deliver the appropriate performance for this sword.

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