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Rules Nugget (GURPS): What's a Miss?
Fri, 2007-10-05 13:19 — tbone
Variants and options
Intro: Is a miss a miss?
There are two ways in GURPS to "miss" a target with your attack: either fail your TH roll, or have your successful TH roll thwarted by the target's successful defense roll.
The latter case is easy to understand: the attack was "on target", but the target avoided it. This rules nugget will only look at the former miss, the failed TH roll. I've always played this as the attack proceeding off-target, plain and simple: the bullet whizzed past the target, the sword thrust stopped short, and so on.
But other interpretations float about: namely, the idea that a "miss" might actually represent the attacker hesitating – perhaps failing to see an "opening" – and not attacking at all. I've avoided that interpretation, as it can create conflicts with known consequences of an attack. If the "attack" didn't happen, why is the attacker's axe now unable to parry, or his halberd completely unready? Why is he short a bullet, arrow, or throwing knife?
Further, it's artificial to imagine fighters always "circling" and "probing" in a way that allows hesitation. An enraged Ogre, a mindless zombie, or just a hero hacking his way through baddies to reach the heroine slipping off the ledge – none of these would "look for an opening" or otherwise hesitate for an instant.
Yet there are other circumstances in which "hesitation" does play realistically. And there are situations, such as when using DECIDE, in which the difference among no-attack hesitation, a true attack that misses by a hair, and a true attack that misses wildly have potential combat significance. Below is a suggestion for gauging these.
The rule
On any TH roll:
- Success by 0+: Normal, solid hit (unless avoided by Active Defense)
- Miss by 1 or 2 (regular or Defensive Attack): Attacker hesitates.
- Miss by 1 or 2 (All-Out or Committed Attack): Close miss.
- Miss by 3 or 4: Close miss.
- Miss by 5+: Wide miss.
Every result except for "attacker hesitates" means that an attack was launched, with all normal consequences (weapon readiness, missile usage, etc.). "Attacker hesitates" means no attack was launched, and no consequences of an attack apply.
In other words, for most gamers unconcerned about close-vs-wide miss, there's only one item in the above that changes anything in combat: If you "miss" by 1 or 2, and weren't making an All-Out or Committed Attack, then instead of attacking and missing you simply don't attack.
That's it.
Variants and options
Hit by 0: A glancing or similarly weak blow, not a solid hit. That's a topic for a future nugget!
Connections
If using DECIDE
Attacker hesitation triggers no defense.
A close miss represents an attack that is not instantly obvious to the target as a miss; it triggers an "immediate defense".
A wide miss, or a critical TH failure, is instantly obvious as a miss, and triggers no defense. (In the case of gunfire, this would assume the defender can clearly see the gun barrel pointing well off-target. It may sound cinematic, but fits in with the general GURPS ability to dodge bullets based on this perceived path of fire.)
When to use it
Obviously, this is of use only to those wanting more detail in combat. The distinction between near and wide miss is likely of interest only to GMs using DECIDE. The distinction between launching an attack and hesitating, meanwhile, can have combat significance in any game, should the GM have interest in that particular detail.
Status
I've used the close-vs-wide miss distinction with DECIDE, but haven't yet gamed the added attack-vs-hesitation distinction. Your playtest comments are greatly welcomed!
Designer's notes
1. The little bit about Committed or All-Out Attack is important, solving the matter of fighters who shouldn't hesitate. The above-mentioned Ogre, zombie, and frantic hero would all use Committed or All-Out Attacks, not cautious, semi-defensive regular or Defensive Attacks. The same goes for any PC who insists, "When I say I attack, I attack!".
2. Why place hesitation above close and wide miss on the failure ladder? The intent is that increasing degrees of failure should increasingly represent what a skilled fighter isn't likely to do. Hesitation is less of a "mistake" than is a true miss: if nothing else, it keeps the attacking weapon ready, reserves the missile, and/or prevents some dangerous counter-attacks. A true miss, meanwhile – especially a wide one – is something that a skilled fighter should rarely display under normal conditions.
(But would you suggest re-ordering the items, Reader?)
3. The rules for Hitting the Wrong Target (B389) discuss a "straight line" threatening unintended targets. A wide miss might indicate a very unexpected direction for that line! It's something for a GM to wing on the fly, or perhaps it's fodder for a future nugget.
Conclusion
It looks simple enough, but it is useful to anyone? What do you say?
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Re: Rules Nugget (GURPS): What's a Miss?
Wed, 2008-01-16 15:38 — Esteemed Visitor (not verified)> Hesitation: Per the article, hesitating vs flat-out missing has real game effects. If hesitation describes some misses, then those misses shouldn't use ammo, make a weapon unready, allow counter-actions that depend on an attack having been made, etc.
I only use the hesitation description for hand to hand combat. So, there is no problem with ammo. But you’re right with the other rule problems: weapon unready, counter-actions…
> No opening: No "opening" assumes an actively defending opponent…
Not necessarily. A good guard can let you no opening to hit at without requiring any active defense.
> IMO, taking the Evaluate action already does an okay job of simulating waiting for an opening, especially Evaluate followed by Deceptive Attack.
No, because the evaluate maneuver is taken by the attacker, when he wants and for as long as he wants. No opening means that he can’t do what he wants.
> Not right distance: Hmm, if you're too far away and miss because of that, I'd say that fits under a regular, flat-out miss (above); the little extra description is nice. On the other hand, if you're too far away and thus don't attack until you're better within range, I guess the rules equivalent would be actually taking Move (if the distance factor is a matter of whole hexes), or Evaluate (if you're technically the right distance on the game board, but want to simulate that real-life matter of getting the inches just right).
Sometimes, there is just a distance problem of one foot… It is sufficient to miss your target and it brings no problem with the hexe grid or step rules.
> Foe avoids blow: Scoring a "hit", which the foe then dodges, is the clear way to game this; no problem there. I believe you're talking about a TH 'miss', though, which would have been a hit, had not the foe moved in some minor way (not big enough to burn an active defense). Maybe that can simply fall under the category of not getting the TH bonus for a stationary target; either way, it seems a flat-out miss with a little added description, and I don't see any conflicts with other rules. Looks OK!
Yes. Even if the foe doesn’t move first (a guard who didn’t notice your coming, for instance) he can suddenly step forward to watch something, or bend down to pick up something on the floor, etc.
> Not counterattacking: Looks similar to hesitation or "no opening". Again, I'll note the same rules conflicts as hesitation carries, as well as note that taking Evaluate simulates this fine, IMO.
Right. As said above, there are some conflicts… But the GM can solve them easily. When the attacker hesitates or looses his counterattack because he is not in a position good enough to do it, he can be unready. So, even if his weapon is not unready, the GM can assess that he still can’t use it before rereading himself.
> "Opening? But he just did AOA; his defense should all be open!..."
As said in your conclusion, having several description possibilities let you use the one that best correspond to the situation. If the attacker defense is all open, I don’t use the no opening description for instance; I prefer something like: "His attack was so savage and brutal that it make you loose your balance for a little while… So, you don’t succeed to counterattack him this turn."
> "And if I didn't attack, why can't my axe Parry now?..."
"Your axe could parry, but your still hesitating / in a bad position to use it…" Believe me, during a fight, there are times where you are so much thinking about what you will do next that you can’t attack nor defend correctly… Learning to attack and defend fluently (i.e. without hesitation) is hard.
Thank you for your so ineresting site and your so prompt answer.
Gollum
Re: Rules Nugget (GURPS): What's a Miss?
Sat, 2008-01-19 23:39 — tbone> No opening: No "opening" assumes an actively defending opponent…
Not necessarily. A good guard can let you no opening to hit at without requiring any active defense.
Sorry, my meaning was: If we say there was "no opening", that assumes a foe who is in a position allowing active defense, though not necessarily performing one. Yet some foes won't be in a position to defend at all, and it wouldn't make sense to assume a "no opening"-based TH miss against such a foe. More on this below:
> IMO, taking the Evaluate action already does an okay job of simulating waiting for an opening, especially Evaluate followed by Deceptive Attack.
No, because the evaluate maneuver is taken by the attacker, when he wants and for as long as he wants. No opening means that he can’t do what he wants.
I should add that while Evaluate followed by Deceptive Attack makes for an acceptable simulation of "wait for an opening", it's not a great simulation of it. I'll officially lower my estimation of it a bit.
To elaborate: Using Evaluate followed by Deceptive Attack as "wait for an opening" is akin to saying that, if you wait for two seconds (+2 TH), your foe's guard will drop an appreciable amount (trade +2 TH for -1 AD) – no question about it, it will happen. Yet waiting for longer than two seconds brings no further guard-dropping (other than by voluntary choice, such as your foe getting angered by your waiting and choosing to AOA your hide : ).
None of which sounds too realistic as a way to handle the random changes in an opponent's defense readiness. So I stand by my statement that the mechanic can do a stand-in for "wait for an opening", but I hereby add the admission that it does so in a pretty inflexible and limited way.
My point is that the Evaluate + Deceptive Attack mechanic, imperfect though it be as a simulation of "wait for an opening", is better than taking a TH miss and tagging that with the description "you waited for an opening and didn't attack". As mentioned, the latter has results (ammo gone, axe unready, etc.) inconsistent with not attacking.
There's more to be said about inconsistency, covering that and all of the points below:
> Not counterattacking: Looks similar to hesitation or "no opening". Again, I'll note the same rules conflicts as hesitation carries, as well as note that taking Evaluate simulates this fine, IMO.
Right. As said above, there are some conflicts… But the GM can solve them easily. When the attacker hesitates or looses his counterattack because he is not in a position good enough to do it, he can be unready. So, even if his weapon is not unready, the GM can assess that he still can’t use it before rereading himself.
> "Opening? But he just did AOA; his defense should all be open!..."
As said in your conclusion, having several description possibilities let you use the one that best correspond to the situation. If the attacker defense is all open, I don’t use the no opening description for instance; I prefer something like: "His attack was so savage and brutal that it make you loose your balance for a little while… So, you don’t succeed to counterattack him this turn."
> "And if I didn't attack, why can't my axe Parry now?..."
"Your axe could parry, but your still hesitating / in a bad position to use it…"
The big-picture "problem" with all of the happenings handled by description above – hesitation for any reason, no attack due to "no opening", no attack due to momentary poor positioning – is that the game rules truly don't cover any of those situations. Which is precisely what makes them ideal targets for insertion via creative description, I'll happily grant you. But employing a TH miss as the trigger for those creative descriptions creates (admittedly minor) discrepancies with certain logical repercussions of a RAW TH miss.
I've mentioned the "consequences of a TH miss" example already – lost ammo, unready weapon, etc., even though the 'miss' is being described as no attack having taken place at all.
Here's another example: The description of a TH miss as "no attack due to no opening" isn't consistent with the difference between an opponent who's actively defending versus one who isn't. If some TH misses are due to "no opening" non-attacks, then you should score fewer TH misses against active but non-defending opponents who always allow openings, like those zombies pelting you with AOAs. Whatever percentage of 'misses' stem from "no opening" should all become hits when you face the non-defending zombies. Yet the rules grant you no lessening of TH misses when you face the brain-hungry hordes.
Likewise the axe example: If the axe's parry unreadiness is, once in a while, actually just user unreadiness or hesitation, then why does this happen specifically to axe users and not sword or knife users? It seems very unfair to the axe users, who suffer the axe's unique post-attack limitations even when they are described as not attacking!
In short, in all the cases, under RAW, the mechanical results of a TH miss are 100% consistent with "you attacked and missed", and are not very consistent with "you didn't attack". That's my only real observation here. Discrepancies and inconstencies, though certainly minor ones.
Believe me, during a fight, there are times where you are so much thinking about what you will do next that you can’t attack nor defend correctly… Learning to attack and defend fluently (i.e. without hesitation) is hard.
No argument there! I'll just note again that the rules don't cover this, or hesitating because of no opening, or momentary poor positioning. So what to do about that? I think we understand each other fully from there, and we see that we don't have a disagreement, just different preferences. Given an interest in drawing out some interesting combat result not covered by rules, yet for which we don't want to new rules, I think we both agree on considering creative description as the means of "simulation". Where our preferences differ: I look to see whether the chosen description has logical consequences that butt up against other generated results, and if so, throw away that particular description. Whereas you (I believe) say, "well, sure, throw it away if there's a major conflict – but if it's minor, so what, it's good enough and it's fun."
Assuming I have that correct, I have no complaint against your preference. I doubt many players would!
Re: Rules Nugget (GURPS): What's a Miss?
Tue, 2008-01-22 07:20 — Esteemed Visitor (not verified)I fully do agree with your conclusions. Yes, I have to admit that my different descriptions of a miss with the attack roll can raise some little problems with the rules. So, the GM has to be very careful when he wants to use them.
But, having said that, they are much more fun that a perpetual "You attack and you miss!"... That is why I still use them... extensively... But also wisely: I always take the precise situation into account.
Re: Rules Nugget (GURPS): What's a Miss?
Tue, 2008-01-22 12:24 — tboneSounds good. And I'll mention again that, even if one is overly cautious (like me) about description that may conflict with some detail or another, there's still essentially infinite description available. For example, to a swordsman PC who just misses his TH, "You waited just an instant too long... and in that moment, the Orc shifted slightly to the side. Your thrust passes to his left by inches. Yet you see a flash of panic in his eyes as he realizes how close you came." As far as I can see, a detail like slicing air to the left or the right of the target, or the addition of appropriate NPC reaction, fits in safely just about anywhere, with no implied impact on mechanics to worry about.
Anyway, your main original point is well-taken: Description is good!
Re: Rules Nugget (GURPS): What's a Miss?
Sun, 2008-01-20 00:33 — Douglas Cole (not verified)To elaborate: Using Evaluate followed by Deceptive Attack as "wait for an opening" is akin to saying that, if you wait for two seconds (+2 TH), your foe's guard will drop an appreciable amount (trade +2 TH for -1 AD) – no question about it, it will happen. Yet waiting for longer than two seconds brings no further guard-dropping (other than by voluntary choice, such as your foe getting angered by your waiting and choosing to AOA your hide : ).
I would look at this differently. In fighting/sparring, you circle for a bit, and you see the patterns in the movement and defenses that your opponent is making right then. Beyond that time, there's not much more to be gained unless the other guy changes something up. That's probably best modeled with something like Counterattack, but still...basically, once you've got the "pattern" to his movements set (and there usually IS one), you've learned what you can learn for that time. It might take more than two seconds, though.
Honestly, since I like open-ended scaling, I tend to use either doubling or the range/speed table for such things. So if you evaluate for 1 sec you get +1, 2 secs is +2, look for 2 more (4s) and you get +3, circle for 8 secs and it's +4, etc. Combine with some IQ-based Ruses from Martial arts and you have two guys probing and circling and having marginal advantage/disadvantage until someone blows a roll and does something, or someone tries to force the issue and does something.
Re: Rules Nugget (GURPS): What's a Miss?
Tue, 2008-01-22 13:01 — tboneI'm not sure whether we're seeing anything differently or not. If I read correctly, what you're describing suggests that Evaluate best simulates, well, evaluating: you watch a bit, note the positions/patterns, and then exploit that (such as via Deceptive Attack).
That would be different from suggesting that if you wait a couple seconds, your foe will "drop his guard" a bit and let you exploit that. The latter is how I initially suggested one could use Evaluate + Deceptive Attack as a mechanism for "wait for an opening", as we lack any other mechanism, but I agree that it's an imperfect simulation. Evaluate + Deceptive Attack better simulates what you describe; I think we're of the same mind there.
So how to simulate "wait for and exploit an opening", as a design exercise? I would suggest that the simplest, cleanest method would be to first actually have exploitable openings in the combat simulation. Currently, we can always take a "TH succeeds, AD fails" combination and say, "You found an opening!", but that's not exploitable in the sense that the attacker waits, finds the opening, and then attacks; it's description applied to a generic attack + defense, taken at any time, with waiting playing no role.
If we want fighters to "drop their guard" involuntarily (who would do it on purpose? : ) at specific moments, I'd think we'd need to randomize defenses a bit before any TH or AD rolls, in a manner that attackers can attempt to observe and then act upon. Or let Evaluation allow some roll to see (roughly) what the AD roll will be before the attacker decides whether to go for it. Something like that. (But whatever a solid simulation may turn out to be, any extra mods or rolls will likely limit its use to one-on-one combat.)
Incidentally, I love open-ended scaling too, applied appropriately. I prefer your version of Evaluate, and have considered the same – though we have to consider how far to take it. Evaluate indefinitely, and the bonus will go up forever... Should it be capped somehow? Or can the opposing Evaluations of two circling guys do something to "break" the other guy's accumulated bonus? Interesting potential there...
But while an open-ended bonus on something like TH or Feint is potentially problematic, an open-ended bonus on noticing something is much less so, IMO. So if there were, for example, some roll to merely notice when a foe's guard is weak (whether that's simulated through random mods on AD, or "pre-knowning" his AD roll, or some other mechanism), with an attack based on that successful observation gaining some nice (but not open-endedly infinite) bonus, then an open-ended bonus applied to the observation roll may work nicely.
Again, tossing it out to see what sticks –
Re: Rules Nugget (GURPS): What's a Miss?
Sat, 2008-01-12 16:54 — Gollum (not verified)To my mind, there is a lot of way to miss an attack.
- Hestitation is one of them, especially if the PC has a low skill. Hitting someone to hurt him, and a fortiori to kill him, can afraid someone who never did it before.
- Not being able to see the opening is an aother good reason. Even when you really want to hurt your foe, it is not so easy to see the opening in someone's guard.
- Missing the target is a third reason. Hitting something who doesn't move at all is easy. Hitting someone who moves (and strikes back!) is far much harder, even if he doesn't defend himself.
- Not being at the right distance is a fourth reason. I practice a martial art (traditional karate) and we train a lot just to be at the right distance. When you are too far, you miss your target. But when you are too close, it's also impossible to hit your foe efficiently enough.
- Making a good blow but which is so previsible that the foe will notice it and avoid it without making the least effort is another reason.
- And not being able to counter attack, because you are not fast enough, or you are not in a good position to do it, is yet another reason. In reality, fighters don't strike one after the other. there are times when one of them strikes several times in a row and times when the other do it...
So, which is the good reason?
GURPS doesn't say it, and I find this very clever. The GM can choose the reason, depending on the attacker, the defender and the precise situation. More interesting: the GM can make the reason varry to describe the fight in a much more entertaining way...
"While your hesitating he strikes you again... You want to hurt him but you don't see any opening in his guard... You move much too slowly! He attacks you again before you can act... He avoid your too much previsible blow just by making a step on the side..." is much more interesting than just one reason, always the same, repeated indefinitely.
Re: Rules Nugget (GURPS): What's a Miss?
Tue, 2008-01-15 13:40 — tboneAll sounds good, and I'm glad too that GURPS doesn't try to simulate each of those factors with every blow. (Though I wouldn't heap any special praise on the game for that; I'm not aware of an RPG that does fuss over the many ways to miss.)
Anyway, I also like the idea of not worrying about all that! Easiest to just not think about the details of a 'miss'.
But if we do consider the technicalities of a 'miss'... hmm, thinking it over, I have to say that in the end, I don't care to assume that one of a half-dozen inerpretations of 'miss' may have taken place. I prefer a really simple stance of "You hit or you flat-out miss; at the level of detail we're playing, the game doesn't consider more nuanced ways to 'miss'".
The reason is that some of the ways to 'miss' will conflict with other rules. Or, some of the ways to 'miss' are, IMO, already covered by other rules. Or some of the ways to 'miss' are just more detailed variants of the simple flat-out miss (in which case the description is fine!).
Let me take your list (which is good and interesting stuff!) and peer closely:
The point: I like the list, and fully support creative description of actions like that! But I personally like to limit the creative description to things that won't conflict with other rules.
"You struck from a little too far, and fell inches short of the target." No conflict with regular 'miss' mechanics there; sounds good!
"Okay, you've done Evaluate for two turns, and now take Deceptive Attack at -2 TH, -1 AD... You hit! You watched and really picked out an opening in his defenses." That sounds nice too; no conflicts that I see.
But: "You miss... Let's rule that you didn't find an opening, and didn't attack..." That just raises questions: "Opening? But he just did AOA; his defense should all be open!... And if I didn't attack, why can't my axe Parry now?... And if I didn't attack, why am I now vulnerable to his Riposte?..." And so on.
If there's conflict like the above, I'd prefer to either:
a) apply the description to other circumstances that don't conflict. (Example: Use the description of "you wait until you find an opening" for the Evaluate action); or
b) abandon the description, placing it on the infinite list of details that the simulation just doesn't support. (Example: Admit that the basic rules don't cover involuntary "you do nothing at all" hesitation; we should leave it out, or add it in if we want, with any required considerations so it matches the mechanics of "no attack".)
That makes things cleaner in the end, IMO – and there's still lots and lots of creative description, such as much of your list, that does play nicely with existing rules.
(I'm waxing a bit philosophic, as it's all one of those "principle of the thing" matters anyway. If you do allow, for example, the "hesitation" description, and selectively apply it only when there aren't any polearms or bullets or Ripostes or other conflicting rules in play, I think we agree that nothing's going to explode, and probably no players will even think to complain!)
Thanks for the interesting food for thought!